00:00:06
Hello and welcome to Password on Tech TV with me, Peter Warren. Your monthly deep dive into the technology that now runs our lives and knows us intimately. Brought to you by Future Intelligence and available as a TV program on TechTV. Digital identity cards. the deeply unpopular new initiative from the government that it is claimed will help some of the problems of illegal immigration and see the UK get up to speed with most of the rest of Europe, Scandinavia and countries like Nigeria. When K star the UK premier announced the
00:00:48
measure, many opponents instantly derided it as a knee-jerk reaction to the success of reform in recent opinion polls. It was decidedly odd. To combat the small boat crossings, illegal immigrants would be beaten by ID cards. Simple. In one stroke, it would deter those who wanted to take advantage of our welfare state and restore order. As a move to prevent the Elysium filmike scenario painted by reform, though, it won’t work. In Elythysium, a group of super rich live in utopic bliss on a satellite where all illness is banished
00:01:30
and the poor live in misery on an arid earth. A Robin Hoodlike figure portrayed by a dying Matt Damon helps the sick and the wounded to get to Elysium and they are miraculously healed and everyone can become a member of this blissful satellite world. Back on Earth in the UK to head off the wave of immigrants intent on our social service system. We will brandish digital ID cards at them. The key to the UK’s Elysium. Sorted only. It’s not as simple as that. The measure has provoked alarm. 2,939,219
00:02:16
people from a very broad church have signed a petition protesting against the initiative. Its opponents site fears ranging from authoritarianism to state surveillance, paternalism, privacy and cyber security. So we decided to flesh out the story because ID cards is a topic future intelligence has reported on from the word go and oddly it’s digital history goes back to the conservative administration of Margaret Thatcher. One of the leading experts on digital ID is David Burch a former professor at
00:02:55
Surrey University described by the independent as a gradea geek. Bur says that we must have them, but there there are issues that we have to deal with. >> I think the way to think this through, Peter, is you have to decouple two things. So, you have to think about the need to separate that from 1950s notions of ID cards, which is how people who don’t understand the technology tend to think about these things. So I think it goes without saying we all understand that we live in aworked world
00:03:31
now that we didn’t live in before. It is just a fundamentally different world and it’s a world in which a lot of the time you have no idea who you’re dealing with or more importantly what you’re dealing with. And if we’re going to protect people I mean you only have to watch one episode of scam interceptors or or anything like that to understand just how terrible the situation is at the moment. I think I’m right in saying fraud is the number one reported crime in the UK. If you talk to
00:03:57
the UK banks, they’ll tell you four-fifths of the frauds that they see come from social media, etc., etc. So, we all understand there’s a there’s a problem and the question is what to do about it. So, do we try to fix that problem by looking backwards to a previous generation, in fact, two previous generations ago, and saying, well, let’s give everybody an ID card, which is in a way is a bit like saying, well, let’s let’s give everybody a butter churn or a dial telephone or something. I mean,
00:04:27
it’s I’m sure many people are nostalgic for this, but it’s pointless in in modern society. and say instead let’s give people access to a digital identity infrastructure. So what would be the key characteristics of that digital identity infrastructure? The fundamental one is that you would not be disclosing personal information unless it was absolutely needed. And in most transactions that most of us take part in most of the time the critical element to the transaction is not who
00:04:58
you are. It’s it’s not, you know, am I Dave Burch, it’s am I allowed to access this website? uh is this my bank account? Am I allowed to go through that door? Am I allowed to drive this car? In other words, it’s a question of credentials, not identity. And I can illustrate that very simply using the canonical example that everybody uses. If you walk into a pub and they want to know if you’re over 18, you show them your driving license. Uh whereby you’re showing them your name, address, and all
00:05:27
sorts of other things about yourself which are completely not relevant to the transaction and none of their business. The question, are you over 18 is a completely different question to who are you? And we should restrict people to asking the questions that they really need the answers to. Now, an identity card in the kind of 1950s sense of it is a dumb thing. It says all sorts of things about you and uh and it has no idea who is actually looking at it or what they’re allowed to do. Compare that to the
00:05:59
example of how Apple, for example, is using mobile driving licenses in some US states already. The barman wants to know if you’re over 18. So, he displays a barcode on his phone. You scan it with your phone. Your phone says this person, whoever it is, who is authorized to ask this uh wants to know if you’re over 18. Is it okay to tell them yes or no? And you put your thumb or you look at your iPhone or whatever and it tells them this person is over 18 or 21 or 36 or whatever it is to get a drink in the US. It does not
00:06:31
tell them this is your name, address, height, weight, inside leg measurement and everything else. So what we need to do is to extend that general principle of providing credentials to enable transactions uh everywhere into all corners and by doing that we can simultaneously increase people’s security and increase people’s privacy. Now the situation we’re in at the moment is a little bit confused. I think I think it’s fair to say because so far when journalists ask me you know what do
00:07:02
you think about the government ID scheme? I said, “Well, I don’t think anything about it because I don’t know what it is.” I mean, you’d have to tell me what it is before I can form any opinion about it, and I have no clue what it is, and I don’t think the government do either at the moment. So, it’s all a bit up in the air and and a little bit pointless. Now, what are the origins of this? I think this is, and you know, you’ll be shocked to hear this. I think this is not a
00:07:31
carefully thought through strategic proposition designed to enhance the net welfare. I think it’s more of a knee-jerk reaction to a variety of other problems, none of which it will solve. So, to summarize all of that, um, do I think it’s a good idea to have a digital identity infrastructure? Yes, I do. In fact, I think it’s an imperative. I think it’s insane to try to operate a modern society without that. Uh, do I think we need an ID card to do that? No, I don’t. Um, do I think the ID card as
00:08:02
proposed will help with any of these things? I couldn’t say. I haven’t the slightest idea how this proposed ID card is actually going to work or what it will do. >> David Burch, one of the world’s leading experts on digital ID, on the incredibly muddy world of digital ID. It’s digital history goes back to the conservative administration of Margaret Thatcher. Her successor John Major tried to introduce digital ID without success and the next attempt was by the Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair who has become a
00:08:38
champion for the technology. His Tony Blair Institute has been seen as a prime mover behind the current initiative. An attempt colored by Blair’s association with Larry Ellison, the world’s second richest man and the founder of the US database company Oracle. Ellison, who has been pushing digital ID cards since 2001 in the US, has donated £257 million to the Tony Blair Institute so far, and there are rumors of a further 169 million in the pipeline. Ellison has outlined his plans in the US, saying the government could create a
00:09:24
national identification card. It would contain basic information about the holder, including their social security number and would be linked to a federal database containing detailed personal data such as the digital records of the person’s thumb print, palm print, face, or eyes. Passengers would show their card at airports, Ellison said, and have their thumbs scanned by a digital reader to verify their identity before boarding a plane. The cards also will be instantly checked against a new national
00:10:01
database that would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists. Blair has had a long association with Ellison. The pair had a photo opportunity at Downing Street to mark a gift of supplies to 40 specialist schools. Oracle has since been contracted hundreds of times by the British government and earned 1.1 billion pounds in public sector revenue since the start of 2022. According to data collected by the procurement analysts tussles, Ellison has seen the UK’s NHS data as a key
00:10:40
component of digital ID card services. In February of this year, Ellison told Blair of his interest in NHS data when he was interviewed by him via video link at the Dubai World Government Summit. The NHS in the UK has an incredible amount of population data, Ellison enthused. But it was fragmented. Two weeks later, Blair’s Institute published a report entitled Governing in the Age of AI: Building Britain’s National Data Library. In it, the notfor-profit institute echoed Ellison on the UK’s data infrastructure, calling
00:11:23
it fragmented and unfit for purpose. It’s an association between Blair and Ellison that many see as unhelpful because a lot of ID experts say that there is a desperate need for a digital ID card scheme that operates in the public interest. But it gets even muddier. The UK has over 40 different ID systems, ranging from passports to driving licenses and national insurance numbers to NHS IDs and numerous other IDs for business. Perhaps Ellison is right. The system is definitely fragmented. It’s also chaotic. During the course of
00:12:07
research for this program, we spoke off the record to some of the leading figures in civil service computing, both past and present. And they all spoke of a system in desperate need of overhaul. Computer systems so old that they dated back over 30 years that used obsolete operating systems and that are often the target of hacking attacks. In the last two years, the government has suffered many attacks on its computers and so far has lost the entire electoral role, all the records of those in receipt of legal
00:12:44
aid and seen several mod databases compromised. if we could sort things out. According to Aleandro Hatami, the founder of Pacemakers and a passionate advocate of digital identity systems that take the data away from government control and leave it in the hands of the subject, that means you and me, then it could have profound benefit. Well, the thing is we have we live in a world of digital services and I think if we can’t identify ourselves digital for these digital services uh we will be excluded and we will have to pay high
00:13:20
prices. We get low quality of service and so on. Um the NHS is could be more efficient. Our taxation systems could be more efficient. Our our financial services organization will be more efficient. Um and most of these people who are objecting to have their ID taken have their IDs already in all the all three all the places that I mentioned to you. So what what the digital ID helps most is not the affluent uh it’s not the middle classes is the is the less affluent that can really benefit from
00:13:51
having a means of authenticating themselves that is not a bank account from some with somebody else or a utility bill. So it is about equality. It is about transparency. It’s about opportunity. And I think that just for those three reasons, I think it’s a worthwhile uh effort. Shouldn’t that message be being made? One of the reasons that people don’t seem to be uh in favor of it at the moment is they hear about people like the former prime minister Tony Blair lobbying on behalf of Larry Ellison who
00:14:26
uh has said that, you know, the UK needs to have a digital identity card scheme. And people don’t trust that. They instantly think politicians and big business. >> Well, look at countries that do have digital ID. Sweden for example, uh most of Europe, etc. Are they less democratic? Or are they are people imprisoned and mistreated and abused? Do we get do they get targeted by marketing messages that they don’t want to hear? Um I think the answer to that is no. um digital ID done poorly is is um done
00:14:58
well I’m sorry has has really brought so many people out of poverty look at what’s happened in India for example um I think fundamentally it is the affluent already have digital personas everywhere they’re just fragmented all over the place the less affluent are being excluded from services because of that and the fact that Larry Ellison is getting involved is just a mistake by Mr. Blair I think um I think um he could have brought a lot more people a lot more influential people le less car less
00:15:29
let’s put it that let’s put it politely less uh polarizing individuals to talk about the the world the benefit of of digital ID and I think um that’s a shame >> but that that comes to the n of it doesn’t it because people I would hazard a guess that many of those people who are opposing this are They don’t understand it, but they claim that this is state surveillance. Does that mean that they don’t understand? Does that mean that we need to get a mass information exercise going?
00:16:01
So, interesting. State surveillance. So, how how would that look like? So, the state would know where I bank, but the state knows where I bank. The state would know what my health situation is, but the state knows what my health situation is. This this the state would know where I’m trying to apply for a mortgage or loan, etc., But the state already knows when I’m applying for. It’s just being manipulated by politicians that um are unhelpfully damaging the UK public by creating this
00:16:29
this uh noise about something that is is an obvious benefit to all of us. We all have, you know, our mobile phone number is actually a form of digital ID if you want. Um and we nobody objects in having nobody wants to have a secret mobile phone, do we? So why we don’t want to have a digital ID? Now what the digital ID will also do would allow us to control where our ID is being used. We’ll be able to see it. We were able to be more transparent about who’s using our persona and so on and so forth. That
00:16:56
would be imp possible for people to pretend they are us and ask for mortgages and loans as as you know countless people are are getting scammed with. Um all in all I think it’s it’s a it’s something that is kind of obvious and it was just for political um reasons why it has not happened because um all of the western world with the exclusion of the US has a digital ID >> history to all of this that’s part of the the the the reason why for the distrust isn’t it that’s part of the
00:17:27
baggage that goes with this because this has been a longterm government >> position they’ve wanted to establish a digital ID. Margaret Thatcher raised the idea. John Major tried to implement it. Tony Blair raised the idea. He tried to implement it. There were just before the pandemic, there were attempts to try to introduce a digital ID. So irrespective of the political party, there seems to be an underlying imperative from government with a big G. you can’t. So, as you say, >> people can see a a reason for doing it.
00:18:11
They just haven’t really properly explained the reason for doing that. >> I I think you’re so right. I think it’s the issue is exactly the benefits have not been highlighted and there’s a lot of efforts going to challenge the the downside and you don’t talk about the upsides well enough. So, we live in the country that we live in and in a digital world that we live in. um ID is is a very valuable tool that we as an individuals have to protect ourselves. It’s not a way of the state to
00:18:37
controlling us. And if the state wanted to control us, it doesn’t need the ID to do that. Okay, look at look at what’s happening in Russia. Well, the Chinese have a digital ID, but they’re not using it for these purposes. If you want to be a dictatorship, you can control your people. You don’t need a digital ID to do so. Um so digital ID just makes life easier. Um and we have to trust the government not to use it in in a in in a uh let’s say poor way and we trust the government not to do that in so many
00:19:05
other fields. So why would we do it there too? Although that is I mean the big worry is this again comes against a backdrop of authoritarian uh uh history where people think of Hitler, they think of Stalin. You mentioned China. China has been using its digital ID systems to actually discriminate against the weager population. It uses digital ID. According to the China observer Isabelle Hinton, she told us in an interview that you you if the Chinese government decides that you are persona non grata
00:19:45
that uh you can’t fill up your car with petrol. You’re not allowed to travel. So that is the fear. >> That is the fear. But the the issue is not it’s not the digital ID. It’s the government. It’s not the it’s it’s the the there’s so many other tools that they’re using. The the Uggers are not just being used, you know, being challenged with digital ID. They’re putting concentration camps. They’re abused and they’re mistreated and they’re um they’re discriminated
00:20:09
against. The digital ID is not an accelerator of that. This is this is this is just is just a means um one of the many means that they’re using, but they have so many others that are even more effective, much more painful. the fact that if I’m when I moved to this country many years ago before I became British, I I tried to open a bank account here and I couldn’t open one and I had to get a letter from my employer to send to certify that I’m a real person that I exist and had I been able
00:20:38
to have a leverage my ID European digital ID with this or or my own ID that I would have created when I moved to this country would have been a trivial matter and I luckily for the bank I’m still working I’m still have my bank account with the same bank that I I opened my account with 30 years ago. But I wish I had had a choice. You know, I could have been able to use a way of authenticating myself in a way that was not dependent on my employer, was not dependent on so many other factors that
00:21:04
we are depending on right now. >> Then this comes down to trust and transparency. It comes down to me saying, “Yep, >> I’ll get a digital ID. I want you to use my ID in this way. This is what I get in return. Um some people sim Berners Lee, Professor Irene are propounding systems where you actually store your own data and choose what is done with that data. Do you think that’s a good idea? >> That is a very good approach and I think this would wouldn’t just be my identity
00:21:39
but would be other other data that I have about me. So I will be able to control who gets my information, who gets my healthcare information, who gets my financial information and so on and so forth. But we’re far from that. So we have to there’s a distributed ID version of this. So it’s use a distributed ledger technology. So you could have my ID would be dispersed in different locations. Then only I have the key to bring the information out and validate it. And the minute I withdraw that key
00:22:04
that information my information disappears. Um but that is what the future should look like and I think it’s likely that that it would look like for democratic countries maybe not in others but um the the first step in that direction is to create a single authenticator for me which I then can decide is going to be applied in a way that we described or it’s going to be in a more traditional way just allows me to say who I am and then my data resides in in different locations. Uh but uh I’m
00:22:33
aware of it and that’s the important thing. Alessandro Hatami, the founder of Pacemakers, on how adopting digital ID can lead to whole new industries and efficiencies in the UK and improve life for everyone rather than simply being seen as a device that allows you to work. One of the main messages from Kier Starmer when he announced their introduction, it’s a message of efficiency that there are many advocates for. Take Vssburg, the chief data architect of the Estonian government, one of Europe’s leading
00:23:11
lights in the adoption of digital technologies, a process that has propelled the small Baltic nation of 1.5 million people to the forefront of technology. For Estonia, the individual experience is key. So understanding the data owner is uh in the end the individual itself. So they have the right to decide over who and for what reason can actually access. Of course for taxation purposes you cannot opt out but at the same time you can opt out in other cases that are not critical for the functioning of the
00:23:52
state itself. In the in a student government we say data holder. So you hold the data but you’re not an owner of the data. So there is a distinction and at the same time we have the data minimization principle in place as well that data can only be collected and used for the reasons stipulated in the law itself. So a data minimization principle. Now when it comes to the ownership of data, the most important part is citizencentric data governance which is not too much talked in UK for instance. So enabling
00:24:32
citizens to actually decide over who are the third parties or stakeholders can who can actually use the data for particular reasons within a certain time frame. So it’s actually we have a kind of a birthday today as well because we just crossed 1 million consents given during the time that the consent service has been uh implemented in agencies. This in a situation whereby we haven’t yet even regulated consent service in the law. This is in the process. So people have really taken up this
00:25:10
opportunity to share for instance when you want to get a a loan then you know the process it’s lengthy you need to prove how long you have worked what is your salary your income over the years now imagine you can authenticate yourself and you it will take two three minutes and you will already receive an offer because that decision is based on the data that the government has collected on you over the years and you share this information with different financial institutions or similarly in the
00:25:49
healthcare sector. Right now individuals are giving a consent for different private sector medical prediction practitioners to actually process your health records, prescribe your drugs or different health providers giving you recommendations what drugs to take, not to take, when you need to renew your drugs and so forth. So it’s really about ownership in a classical sense that you or not a classical sense in a new sense that you can decide who when can process and at the same time it’s also about if
00:26:28
this data belongs to yourself then it’s very critical for me to understand how my data is actually being processed and for that reason we have developed a service called data tracker which provides an overview in the government portal for what reasons the government has processed data by whom and so on. In the end of June we passed in the government that data tracker is going to be mandatory for the whole of government and all ministries together with their agencies need to have a data tracker
00:27:06
implementation plan in place. This of course again there are always with the rule of some exceptions. So if a criminal prosecution is taking place you cannot find out early on that I’m under an investigation. But in all other cases it’s truly about providing transparency over how my data is being processed. Giving individuals and companies a chance to share their governmental data. And now as a third step, we are working on what we could label as a citizen digital twin. Giving individuals the right to choose their
00:27:47
preferences on how and for what reason they can receive services if in some circumstances the government should proactively notify them how proactive the government itself can be. So again, you control how your data is handled in the end, what services you receive and on what terms and at the same time giving individuals also an overview of what data the government has actually collected on them. There are always kind of various other uh aspects but the transparency trust is one critical part but also
00:28:27
economical support. So when we talk about the consent service just to give you an an example during the last two years data intensive companies have grown their revenue each year more than 16%. On average today they provide to the economy uh added value close to 5.6 billion euros. So when the economy itself is not doing the best in Europe as a whole then companies that are actually utilizing data they are outperforming every sector. So regardless of the sector and similarly when we talk about employment for instance those companies
00:29:14
are increasingly hiring more and more people across the whole workforce 2% increase or more each year. So it’s about enabling a more efficient data economy. >> Those figures are are definitely coming through. Having that good data is basically better for Estonia. >> Yeah, exactly. That’s that’s what we see from the companies that are investing. That’s the impact. >> Are those companies they’re they’re allowed to buy into that data collection that you’re doing. Are you giving some
00:29:55
partnership to the people who are providing the the data in this as well, i.e. your citizens? >> Yeah. So you process their data. So you as a citizen you can today I mentioned the different use cases you can share your data you can decide and similarly from the beginning of next year we are going to extend this opportunity also to companies businesses so they can share their government health data with different stakeholders as well. And uh when it comes to government to business businessto business data exchange as
00:30:31
well then uh with the government it’s regulated and it can happen. So if we take a look at the number of organizations utilizing XRO our data exchange layer then actually many are businesses. So when we compare central government to the number of private sector stakeholders, it’s actually tilted more towards businesses. So imagine different stakeholders such as pharmacists or healthcare providers or insurance companies and the list goes on and on. Basically every area is utilizing the same same platform, same
00:31:14
principles. >> Velsburg, chief data architect of the Estonian government on how the Baltic nation managed to get buyin to digital ID from the population. And touches on one very important issue. If you’re going to have digital ID, it has to be universal. And that means embracing everyone. How do you make a system work when not everyone has access to technology? In the UK, around 20% of the population are in what is described as digital exclusion. According to a recent report from the House of Lords that you can
00:31:59
find on the future intelligence website, Estonia’s experience has not been shared by Nigeria, an unlikely nation to be associated with digital ID given its fearsome reputation for internet crime and extortion scams, but one that according to Chioma Noadiki, a prominent lawyer and civil liberties activist in the country and a former advisor er to the UN who describes a Nigerian government computing environment startlingly similar to the UK. >> You see the immigration, the passport had their own disservice. You see the
00:32:36
independent uh national elector uh commission the INC the voters card had their own uh driver license um telecom banks have their own database. So we had different database but the thing is that this uh system did not communicate with each other. So each agency had their own system of collecting, collecting, storing, managing the database. But there were so many issues as a result of this issues like we had multiple uh duplication of personal data where and there were consequences with that also
00:33:09
with there were conflicting data identity profile. There were issues of inconsistent record and there were also issues of fraud. You know I’m sorry to say this. Nigeria had a long history of fraud. We have so many um um ghost in fact there also cases of ghost workers working in government institutions where they are any benefit without really working. We had the SIM card crimes right we have cyber crimes because of all these data there were also national security concerns right where unregistered sim cards were used
00:33:47
for kidnapping and all that. So we had a long issues because of it and the only way we could do that was centralized database. So Nigeria decided to uh to build to have a single foundation identity right to clean up the mess. So that was basically one of the reason reasons why we decided to go on the decentralized database system to have a digital ID. it hasn’t worked because there’s a whole lot of issues concerning this system right where we even look at let’s even start from how did we decide to address
00:34:24
this issue right first in 20 in 2007 Nigeria decided to enact the law the national identity management commission right the law that basically the commission will be responsible to register all citizens and legal resident right and also commission will also issue like a national identity number to everyone and then issue the ID card the e ID card at the end of the day and aside that we’ll set the standard for like a global as in a national standard for different agencies and then harmonize all the
00:35:02
database but the issue is that the implementation of the law is slow is slow and this law was enacted in 2007 7 we’re in 2025 we’re still having issues and then okay so in 201 I think in 2013 right Nigeria now no yeah in 2013 Nigeria decided okay what do we do to make to enforce this law so they came up with three things first is that we said we’re going to issue we’re going to assign the national identity number to everyone right and that each agencies like the bank right immigration everyone
00:35:43
phone will have to use the number the NIN number. So if you want to like for us that we had a bank, we have the bank account and all that before the introduction of the law that they gave us like days to ensure that we get the number and link like our bank um our bank profile to that the number. So it took a while for them to regularize that to for everyone to get that number. I remember when when I wanted to renew my passport, I had to get the number, the NI number and I had to do it like three times for
00:36:20
it to work. Even to capture my tongue was an issue for me for them to issue that. So the issue of implementing the law is a problem. The issue of infrastructure having the right infrastructure isn’t a problem, right? that even despite the fact that we said okay to address this issue let’s do a centralized database there are also loopholes to them so it’s not something that is going to work immediately it might take a while but looking at the Nigerian system like our economy and all that that were the
00:36:54
best solution to go through >> do do people trust it do people trust the government what do they see as the uh the intentionality behind this what do they see as The motive, >> the motive from the government perspective, the motive basically is to be able to ensure that because we have a whole lot of cases of fraud, cases of uh identity tests, right? And we’re saying the government is saying that they want to harmonize this identity. They want to reduce fraud. They want to make service
00:37:29
delivery more efficient. So, let’s go through then. Do people trust it? I’ll say no. because it was frustrating from the beginning. Like I said, when I wanted to get the number, when I wanted to renew my passport for the trip, I did it took me a while as in I had to go through and there was a time that we had to stay for 2 days on the cube trying to get it was frustrating to get the number. The process is tiring, right? That even though this has started since 2013, we are still struggling over
00:38:03
it. People don’t trust it. Is it working for us? No. Because we still have a cases of cyber crime cases, for fraud, identity are still there. So people normally, you know, naturally people will push back to certain things they’re not used to. It takes a while for them to adjust. the lawyer and civil liberties activist chairman Noi Adiki on Nigeria’s flirtation with a national ID card scheme designed to eradicate fraud that has not yet delivered simply because it doesn’t work very well.
00:38:39
So what is it about the Estonian experience that has convinced people that it is worthwhile? According to an anter, the chief technology officer of the Estonian cyber security company Cybernetica, the key is in understanding what sort of ID you are trying to express digit. It should be simple and functional, something that does not appear to have worked with the Nigerian model. It has to be in your interest. uh we actually we have actually three different eid means and um how does it work? I would I would
00:39:19
first take a step back and uh and uh try to define what’s the eid is because it’s kind of like a electronic identity and I think that this this metaphor is perhaps confusing for some people uh especially when people use some definition of identity as being all the information about the person like information about you it defines you it is your identity and sometimes people assume that electronic identity. It’s basically all the information about a queue in electronic form easily usable but also
00:39:53
easily abusable. And this is not the Estonian electronic identity is about. It’s basically a technical tool that actually combines two functions. First one is a secure authentication in the web environment. very simple thing but let’s say at a nationwide level uh with very high level of security and second one is a tool for giving legally binding digital signatures. to just two very simple functions bound together uh and um let’s say on a on their own they are not dangerous at all but if you use them
00:40:29
wisely at the society level they can be very very useful they can really transform the way how we do the business how we interact with government uh it will streamline everything from citizens to businessman to to the government so simple tools and yes in Estonia We have a national ID card uh since 2002 which has both those two functions authentication and digital signature. It’s still uh compulsory every citizen has it every non-resident has it. Um then we have two different mobile phone based tech technique like tools that
00:41:08
have a same capability and for the end user there is no difference which one of those three you are using. Uh the end result is the same. One has one like advantages, different tool has different advantages and basically everybody’s using it from like underage kids to the grandmas. >> Well, but why did Estonia suddenly decide you need a digital ID? Estonia is well known for being probably the most interneted country in the world, incredibly technologically advanced. Is that the reason that if you
00:41:42
want to run a technological world, you have to have a digital ID? >> Yeah, I think it was a vice versa. We we first had a ID and this enabled us to be so advanced in in our like a digitalizing in our society and and why we created this digital identity in the first place place I think it was like a uh like a because of a vision like our government uh had a vision uh that was supported by the like a technical community I would say that ID guard is possible that ID guard is useful and uh and government uh made quite a brave
00:42:20
decision at this time to invest uh integration of this this tool uh and I would say first four five years there were not very much application but I think that this kind of like four five perhaps six years it’s actually time that is needed in order to kind of like convert people to make them believe that this tool that is created is secure that it it’s not going away that government is still backing it uh it till it is a sufficient time for applications to emerge and and at some point of time uh
00:42:54
it’s unavoidable. I mean like it’s everywhere. It’s so useful that it’s used for for everything and uh like I said it’s this moment that when you realize that yes this was like a this vision was a great vision. I mean like it was a right decision. We we took like a correct risk. We the investment has really paid off for the for the nation. >> And I mean a lot of people don’t realize that they have digital IDs anyway to operate in the modern internet. They’ve got a digital ID with Facebook or Meta.
00:43:27
They have a digital ID with Google. They don’t re and in fact they don’t realize that Google send sell identification services to nation states. Um >> do you think that there is I mean obviously not in Estonia because people um the subscription to ID and the use of of of digital identity in Estonia is very very high isn’t it? Yeah, but I would like to point out one very important distinction between like a Facebook identity and this Estonian electronic identity. It’s actually not
00:44:00
electronic identity. It is Estonian identity. And and the important bit is that in the digital transactions and in the real world transactions, you have a same identifier. So if you do something in your real life, you go to some office, you do this over theounter transaction, you physically identify yourself, those records can be correlated your your single account and if you approach the same service from the internet with your digital identity, it’s the same person. And I think this is very important that you have this
00:44:32
kind of like a freedom. You’re not just operating in the digital world yet. You you operate in real world as well. and everything that you do in the real world is uh kind of like reflected in the digital world and vice versa. >> Arians, the chief technology officer of the Estonian company Cybernetica. As he says, if you have a digital ID, then it has to work in both the online and offline world and leave as little trace as you do when you walk along the high street. It should enable rather
00:45:04
than being a vulnerability to cyber criminals. That’s the point that Warick University’s professor Irene is keen to underline. If all of our data is in one place, it’s vulnerable as attacks on the UK government have shown and that criminal focus is growing. A new report by the European Union Agency for Cyber Security warns that public administrations across the EU have been facing a surge in cyber attacks in recent years. Central governments were the most targeted accounting for 60% of incidents. The
00:45:45
report identifies distributed denial of service attacks, data breaches, ransomware, and social engineering as the most prominent threats. According to Professor, looking after our own data is important because it makes us understand it. A point made by Vlberg. Very often we have some notion of the colloialism of what we mean by data. Then we leap into some kind of logical we have a logical jump into the AI space and then all the fears of what AI can be could be must be shouldn’t be comes into
00:46:30
that space and say ah but you see look at the harm it has done. So then the job jump is from processing to impact and now we must do something about it. >> Okay. So is the data that we’re talking about then the data that is going to be dangerous to us the data that we need to look out for is that the data that relates to humanity >> all right I’ll give you an example if you take the last number of your passport and you change it digitally you’re a completely different person
00:47:09
that’s your personal data if you take the last number of your Fitbit steps today and change it. No one gives a toss and those are both personal data. The thing about data is it has two a few dimensions. one on its own it can be very potent but it also can be very inert and very harmless when combined inert things inert data that’s personal can become very potent potent data when combined could lose its meaning in some ways you know there are many cases is so we are now confusing and you’re a media you’ll
00:48:01
understand this perfectly. We confuse the medium and the message and we then say they’re all the same thing but they are not. >> Just to take your example there. Let’s look at the Chinese state for example. the Chinese state could combine your Fitbit steps and your passport number and know exactly where you where you’ve gone. I mean, this is one of the accusations that’s leveled against the Chinese state is that it’s this tremendous surveillance system that you now uses AI.
00:48:36
Absolutely. So, you should be then what you’re saying is we should really try to curtail power. I believe we’ve been trying to do that for thousands of years. You don’t need data. This is basically power. It’s about power whether it’s from data or from any other means. So you said all right we need some regulation. But you went from the Chinese state to what is it exactly we’re talking about? Google, Amazon, that guy who just created an app that processes three bits of your data. What
00:49:17
Who are we talking about here? What what what are we talking about exactly that we’re policing? Are we policing data AI or power? >> War University’s professor Irene who is also the chief executive of the personal data initiative data swift. There are though some who are dismissive of moves to enable us to store our own data. The identity expert David Burch, author of Identity is a new money, who he we heard from at the start of the program, commented that if people were given their own data to look after, they would
00:49:59
probably hand it over to Meta’s Facebook in exchange for a Mars bar. Let’s hope it’s one that’s got proper chocolate in it, though. Perhaps this whole thing has all got a bit out of control, a bit too complex. According to Sasha Waldridge, the head of immigration at the law firm Burkits, who says, “We already appear to have the basis for a digital ID card for immigration.” >> Um, in that respect, not a huge change and something I’m already a little bit familiar with. So the roll out of
00:50:36
digital ID for international people in the UK started following Brexit. Um so all those EU nationals in the UK that wanted to remain following Brexit had to register their status in the UK. So the government kind of started their digital ID journey with that population. So obviously millions of people there that needed to register. Um and then following that um which went to be fair to them pretty successfully. I mean, not without some challenges for some individuals for sure. Um, as you might expect with such a big project, but
00:51:09
overall, I would say it was it was pretty successful. Um, and then on the back of that, we’ve seen transformation into the current immigration system for um people on things like study visas, work visas, etc. And that’s an ongoing transformation that the home office are undertaking. So, we’ve seen them start to roll this out. So um almost anybody that’s not a British or Irish national in the UK has had some engagement with digital ID already that’s been um supervised by by and rolled out by the
00:51:38
UK government. So um that that’s used in in a few different areas of life. So when people need to prove their right to work that’s already in play. When people want to prove that they want to open a bank account that system’s already in play and then traveling in and out of the borders. So, we’re already seeing it um for a very large population um of people and and different government bodies and different private organizations using that system. Um but obviously, I’m sure some push or lots of
00:52:09
push back from um resident British and Irish nationals in the UK who don’t feel themselves necessarily wanting to be subject to an ID system. Um but certainly there’s a wellestablished um infrastructure already there that the government can build on. >> Okay. So what you’re saying is that the government have already got some experience of doing this and that they can use it and they can use it for the purposes that they’re keen on. Do you think many of the people we’ve
00:52:36
interviewed have said look Scandinavia’s got very useful very usable ID card schemes? Europe’s got usable ID card schemes. Why wh why is there push back from um people in the UK? What what’s the problem? I mean, do you do you think it’s good? Do you think that it works? >> We need to understand what’s the what’s the purpose of introducing this scheme because yes, it’s very possible to to roll one out, but why are we doing so? Um, arguably we already have a scheme
00:53:10
whereby you can prove your right to work as British national. You can turn up with your passport or your birth certificate um and prove your right day-to-day life. So I think really it comes down to trust and and and and would the system be rolled out well so the people wouldn’t be negatively impacted on a day-to-day basis. I >> mean it’s interesting we’ve we’ve spoken to some of the world’s leading or top experts in ID and they’re saying hang on everybody’s getting the wrong idea about
00:53:39
this. You just have to assert that you are who you are. That’s really what ID is about. It’s you don’t have to present the information that gives your exact date of birth. You know, if say if you go and go if you want to prove your identity in a pub, the person in the pub just needs to know you’re 18. They don’t need any information on you. They just need to know that you meet that criteria. If you um want to get a job, they just need to know that you’re you’re entitled to work in in the UK. Is
00:54:11
is can we make it that simple? Well, I mean, I’m not the infrastructure expert. I mean, you would hope so that there should be ways of of compartmentalizing that data. We obviously spend a lot of time and energy in business and and in life in terms of data protection and isolating that and and things like a digital ID have got an awful lot of highly sensitive data. And I’ve certainly already seen problems with that. So, I as an immigration adviser helping people with their visas get registered. They’ve got a digital
00:54:42
account. Great. That works. they can start their job, they can get a a property to rent, but then later down the line as their immigration lawyer, I receive emails from the NHS for clients with some of their, you know, appointment details and that’s none of my business. So, um, that’s, you know, that’s me as a breach of of data security and there needs to be better um, checks and balances in place, I think, really. And I think that on a widescale basis would cause a lot of concern for people. I think that’s where
00:55:11
that comes from. I mean, it’s interesting, isn’t it? You take right to work. Well, theoretically, a national insurance number should really be all that you need as a as a right to work because that’s essentially where everybody codifies whether you made your national insurance payments, state pension, so on and so on and so on. Um but the the point has been made to us that the government currently has somewhere near around 24 different identity um services that exist within it. Whether it be your NHS account,
00:55:48
whether it be your driving license, whether it be your national insurance number, the list is endless. Do you think that that could be codified? Do you think that that could be made simpler that again going to this point? One of the people that we spoke to said what you really should have is um Doctor Who’s magic paper that that he just held up and it became whatever credential was necessary for that particular moment. >> That’s what you know ultimately people want something that’s easy to use. they
00:56:20
don’t want to get blocked out of systems. And I think, you know, that’s part of the debate around um ultimately whether or not this is voluntary or mandatory. Um people might push back it being mandatory from the offset, but when it makes life easier, you will get voluntary enrollment quite quickly. I’m sure >> Waldridge, head of immigration at the law firm Burkits, on an immigration system that we already seem to have. That being the case, should we not really put pressure on the government to
00:56:50
think again? If so many people are advocating for a national digital ID card scheme for the 21st century, and if it can deliver so many benefits, then shouldn’t we really make sure that it works for us? You’ve been listening to Password, written and presented by me, Peter Warren, and produced and edited by Blue Buffy for Resonance FM and created by Future Intelligence. To find out more about the high-tech issues now running our world, go to www.feutureintelligence.co.uk. Password is now available as a TV
00:57:33
program via our sister organization TechTV on www.tev.live where it’s edited by Bill MW. Thanks for listening. Goodbye. Here we go.
